My intention is to ask people who I consider, in a certain sense, to be musical experts in our beautiful country for their opinions on the state of our alternative scene, new musical trends, and inspiring artists/events, to create a kind of landscape for AD 2023.
In this episode, the questions are answered by:
• Maciek Frett – organizer of the Wroclaw Industrial Festival, Rytuał, and Podwodny Wrocław, known for his projects Job Karma, FRETT, and 7JK.
• Tomasz Woodraf – organizer of the Return to The Batcave Festival, numerous concerts, and owner of the Bat-Cave Productions label.
• Łukasz "Wookie" Miernik – co-organizer of the iconic Tri-City event Temple of Goths and War of Decades.
• Maciej Mehring – owner of the ZOHARUM label.

In your opinion, what are the most important bands currently in Poland and worldwide? Why?
Maciek Frett: Those that blaze new paths, don’t follow trends, and stay true to their art, despite the current flood of bands I call copy-of-a-copy or, more humorously, "sisters of the cure." There are many of them, and forgive me for not naming names—it’s too easy to overlook someone with so many.
Tomasz Woodraf: I wouldn’t dare pinpoint "the most important" bands, as that’s something deeply personal to each listener, often driven by emotions or specific moments. Personally, with my strong old-school guitar music bias, I’d recommend some groups many of you probably already know: Wieże Fabryk—they recently released their new album, Doskonały Świat, and stayed true to their sound, delivering another solid punch to the face; Miguel And The Living Dead, still half-dead, half-alive, polishing their new album—they played so well at the Gothic Pogo Festival in Leipzig that people are still searching for their jaws on the floor; and Pornografia, always around and in excellent concert form. 1984 is another icon, a factory of timeless trance, still performing and creating. Joanna Makabresku, the masters of cold wave, are very important to me personally—for their music, their lyrics, and simply for being there. Psychoformalina recently released their new album, Chimera—a psychedelic, trance-like, and chilling journey, and even better live. The guys are also involved in the project Opowieść. Other bands I’d recommend without diving deep—Schröttersburg, Huta Plastiku, KSY, Undertheskin, and some fresh blood: After The Sin, Bluefaces, Eat My Teeth, and Yakutian Cult. It’s also worth listening to the recent compilation, Najmłodsza Generacja, by Zima Records. I’ll refrain from recommending foreign bands, as we could go on for a long time, and today, it’s easy to find music that resonates with what we feel.
Łukasz "Wookie" Miernik: The bands that create new value, cross genre boundaries, and introduce their style to other scenes. Right now, I especially appreciate contemporary club music and techno rooted in EBM, italo disco, synthpop, and dark sounds, like Zanias, Pablo Bozzi, Phase Fatale, Minuit Machine, and Local Suicide. I’m totally in love with Kælan Mikla, whose fresh take on witchy goth rightly conquers the world and even breaks into the metal scene, and with Boy Harsher, who’ve brought cold sounds all the way to Hollywood, performing alongside Danny Elfman.
In Poland, I follow the emotional electronic music of Baasch with the highest admiration, our main export—techno queen VTSS, the busiest underground rapper and rightful Paszporty and Fryderyk award-winner—1988, and Bokka, a band that reinvents its style with every album, offering a completely new concert experience each time.
Maciej Mehring: This question doesn’t entirely align with my perspective on music in general; in other words, it’s hard to choose criteria for making such a selection. When we hear "most important," most of us search for examples of artists we value who have achieved significant commercial success. By that measure, it’s tough for me to provide specific examples. However, looking at it from a different angle, there’s undeniably a lot happening across various genres within the broader alternative scene. It’s no secret that metal artists dominate in terms of "exporting national goods." Polish metal = a strong recommendation. The same goes for other niche genres, readily explored in our land by the Vistula. It’s safe to say that there are just as many fascinating artists in Poland as in any other corner of the world. This divide between "Polish" and "foreign" now seems outdated. There was a time when the news that a Polish artist had signed with a foreign label or embarked on a European tour sparked excitement. But I feel that’s changed in recent years, and I see it as a positive shift. We have a solid musical heritage among Polish musicians that can confidently compete with others. Many smaller, fully independent Polish artists perform successfully across Europe, winning audiences who appreciate their work without seeking any "Polish exoticism." That might be the best measure of success. I don’t think it’s necessary to list specific names here—everyone can name their own favorites, and such a list would be endless...

Which festival, in your opinion, is the most influential or important?
Maciek Frett: I participate in many festivals: as a musician, a viewer, and an organizer. Regarding the last, I’ll just say I always wanted to create a festival that I’d personally want to attend regularly, no matter how far it might be held—and I think I managed to achieve that. As an artist, I’ve felt comfortable at WGT, Tower Transmission, BIM fest, Castle Party, and as a viewer, at W-Fest, Return to Batcave, and festivals organized by the Old Skull team.
Tomasz Woodraf: If we’re talking about our local scene, it may sound obvious, but for years it’s been Castle Party. It’s the largest festival of its kind in Poland, with a fantastic atmosphere and a diverse lineup each year, so there’s something for everyone. If you’re looking for something more experimental, there’s also the Wroclaw Industrial Festival, which I attend nearly every year as well.
Łukasz "Wookie" Miernik: WGT springs to mind, but it’s more of a massive gathering of hermetic microclimates than a real inspiration, as you need to know what you want and plan everything carefully in advance. The Dutch do the best job here, starting with the cult Roadburn, through the now-defunct gothic Summer Darkness, to Grauzone, which currently has the best grip on the darker pulse.
Maciej Mehring: With festivals, as with artists, everyone measures their status by their own standards and will point to those they find most relevant. Personally, I’m not a fan of large music events. I don’t feel comfortable surrounded by an uncontrollable crowd, nor do I enjoy listening to a favorite performer only to have the sound drowned out by random attendees who are there but seem uninterested. That’s why I don’t miss those huge gatherings that, by nature, tend to draw the most people. However, I’d be remiss not to mention certain events on the Polish festival map, like Off or Tauron Nowa Muzyka, which carefully select lineups, balancing major headliners to draw large audiences with lesser-known but equally interesting artists. They serve a curatorial role, making them unique.
I belong to the group of people who like to be surprised at concerts and cultural events. The Revive festival has been that for me since its beginning—a smaller, but no less interesting festival. Its creators hit the right notes with me, aiming to showcase fresh and noteworthy acts. They balanced the pursuit of financial success with a commitment to presenting things that align with the festival’s vision. In some respects, albeit on a smaller scale, it’s reminiscent of the legendary Berlin Atonal. Revive is oriented toward intriguing elements in a broadly defined counter-culture. It’s a bit of a shame how things turned out for it, though I’m cheering for Terstin to find the strength and resolve to rebuild the Revive brand that he established over the years. The path for Revive, Atonal, or even Off is more challenging than that of, say, Open Air. It takes more time and determination to win people’s interest. However, through consistency, openness to new trends, and skillfully presenting them to festival-goers, it’s possible to create a community that will return year after year because they know it’s truly worth it.
One more festival that comes to mind is Roadburn, an event I’d like to attend someday. Its fascinating format attracts people from all over Europe, even if they’re unfamiliar with most of the lineup. Wrapping it up, all of the festivals I’ve mentioned can also be applied to smaller events that I always enjoy attending, like WIF, TOS, or even Castle Party. Similarly, I appreciate spontaneous outdoor gatherings with a variety of electronic genres, where professionalism and organization match those of established entertainment industry veterans.

How do you generally assess the state of the alternative scene in Poland, Europe, and the world?
Maciek Frett: "Alternative" is too broad a term for me and is often overused. If you’re asking specifically about the dark scene: unfortunately, it’s an aging scene, which you can see most clearly at festivals in Germany, which have always been the biggest stronghold for these sounds and audiences in the thousands. I get the feeling this music and our favorite festivals will die along with us, which honestly doesn’t bother me too much—after all, nothing can last forever. ;-)
Tomasz Woodraf: It may look colorful, but it’s not good at all. After all, this is the alternative scene; it’s never been easy, pleasant, or smooth here—especially if we view alternative as music and not fashion. There’s a lack of fresh blood—young people who want to engage and build this "scene." Many clubs that hosted concerts and events are closing because it’s just not profitable, or else a deal’s been struck with developers for another phallic-shaped building. These last few years have been especially rough, and there’s no sugarcoating it: the pandemic, the war in Ukraine, skyrocketing inflation, rising costs—all of this impacts our "dream," and we’re living in a completely different world than the one we knew in 2019. We have to support each other, but will we have the strength and means to do it? We’ve currently suspended regular concerts under the Return To The Batcave banner because we’ve just run out of strength and resources—will we return? I don’t know. I’d like to. For now, we’re focusing solely on organizing the 2023 Return To The Batcave Festival. The situation is similar worldwide, as the world is all interconnected.
Łukasz "Wookie" Miernik: Very good, perhaps no one plays stadiums anymore, but the mid-tier scene is in fantastic shape. The alternative scene currently offers great quality and strongly permeates pop culture and even TikTok, though the feedback loop varies. In Poland, it’s not bad either—more or less adequate to the demand. We have steadily operating labels, from the eclectic Opus Elefantum or cassette-focused ISKRA, to the ever-expanding Zoharum, classic Batcave Productions, and Requiem Records, which revives forgotten legends from the early Polish scene while promoting promising new bands. There are a few dedicated promoters, mostly concentrated in Warsaw, although DJ events are struggling, and not everyone has a place nearby to go dancing. We have some interesting bands, but it’s tougher to break out internationally—only undertheskin and NNHMN seem to be actively performing abroad.
Maciej Mehring: I partially answered this question earlier when I spoke about artists I admire, considering them among the most important. Indeed, we have many excellent artists whose work we can take pride in, and who are also well-received on the broader international alternative scene without any inferiority complex. Their efforts often meet with a positive or thoughtful response from fans, sometimes from far-off corners of the world. It’s worth adding, though, and I like to mention this humorously, that there’s no longer a "music industry" as such—only a music scene. This distinction is quite meaningful. We might only learn about the former from movies, tales, and anecdotes from the golden years of 1960-2000, about industry figures who chased artists they saw as sources of wealth. It was a business machine, its gears driven by strategies that invested significant funds into the artistic development of stars, sometimes at great financial risk. Today, that sounds entirely unrealistic.
As a result, these two worlds—mainstream and alternative—coexist nicely without interfering. Through years of activity, separate from major media, the alternative scene has fully professionalized, gaining its independence. Many people who grew up in alternative circles learned to make use of new tools (from the fledgling internet to today’s fully commercial social media), leveraging contacts and connections made years ago in clubs, concert venues, and festivals, often starting in the deep underground. Some of them laid the foundation of what we now recognize as the alternative scene—and what’s best, they continue to operate in the DIY spirit that has lasted for decades. Others started later. Today, they run professional companies handling concert booking, artist transport, record labels, and magazines that are natural extensions of their early tape-trading activities.
Over time, something that wasn’t obvious back then has become clear: the alternative scene can thrive independently of the mainstream, often offering a better experience than what the mainstream provides. In doing so, it has won over a large audience looking for interesting, new, and unconventional musical and cultural experiences. It turned out that to create, publish, and perform, you don’t need a licensed artist certification (which often left artists at the mercy of "business-savvy" people whose music knowledge was dubious at best). All it takes is talent, a bit of a managerial knack, and a dash of audacity to make a name where people don’t know you yet.
To simplify and bring this to a close, I’d say that this kind of scene, based on a certain symbiosis between creators and audiences who share similar sensitivities, honesty, and passion, can reach places that the cool, calculated efforts of the major labels never will. After all, operating in the alternative scene no longer has the connotation of a substitute or cheaper option—it’s fully professional, often handling the ever-changing realities better, no matter the sector. This lets us feel reassured, knowing that thanks to like-minded people with organizational skills, we still have the chance to attend concerts by our favorite artists, to talk with friends afterward about what we love, what’s worth exploring more deeply, or what might still surprise us. This somehow, despite many challenges, gives us a sense of optimism... for now.

Do you think the number of events/concerts will decrease, with fewer people interested in live events?
Maciek Frett: If we're talking about the broadly defined goth/industrial/wave scene, then I'm afraid the answer is yes, and we’re already seeing this happening. As I mentioned before, the audience ages along with their favorite bands. Today, many in their 40s won’t necessarily choose a concert as their first option. Many have families, children, lack of time; others are just making ends meet, paying off loans with barely anything left over, while some will choose a night on Netflix instead—there are so many alternatives for spending free time. It’s the reality of life in a moderately affluent society within the wealthier part of the world. Meanwhile, for the younger generation, music has ceased to be countercultural or culturally formative; it’s just a pleasant background. We’ve always operated within a niche, but now it’s a niche within a niche, and I think it will become even more exclusive. It’s a pity… the 80s and 90s and the accompanying hunger for music and concerts probably won’t return. On the other hand, I’ve come to terms with it; I’m not tearing my hair out over it and have no intention of pushing against the tide.
Tomasz Woodraf: It’s hard to say, but looking at it realistically, smaller organizers will likely close shop and withdraw from the whole game. The bigger ones with the means to keep pushing the cart will remain. People who identify with a given scene will always want to attend live events—it’s in their DNA. The question is whether they’ll have the means to participate or if they’ll have to give up this pleasure and put the money toward bills instead. I hope everyone will eventually enjoy good times that favor hedonism once more. 
Łukasz "Wookie" Miernik: Fewer and fewer old complainers want to do anything. It’s nice to see that there’s a lot of young people at concerts, and new bands like Boy Harsher and Molchat Doma are drawing more people than stage-warmed leftovers reheated for twenty years. Unfortunately, organizing a niche concert these days is somewhat of a gamble, and it’s unclear whether low attendance is due to inflation, post-pandemic settling in, or just a temporary flood of events. There’s hope for the future, though it’s dimmed by the successive disappearance of alternative venues under the pressure of developers’ clutches and the takeover of trendy music by large agencies inflating prices absurdly. The only thing to do is to support local promoters and get out of the house to attend small events.
Maciej Mehring: The last few years have taken a toll on the events industry. Many acquaintances have given up their previous activities, and those two years of the pandemic did their work, making the return post-restrictions equally difficult. First, there was a massive rush; everyone suddenly wanted to make up for lost time, forgetting that every wallet has limited capacity… But I think the problem lies elsewhere. Just as the record industry was once tested, event organizers are now being tested for endurance and creativity. The times we’re currently in demand readiness for abrupt changes. We need to carefully think about what to do and what offers to present to our customers to keep them close.
As consumers, we’re all increasingly overwhelmed by an unrestrained and uncontrollable flow of stimuli, making it hard to find a moment to pause and indulge in the luxury of genuinely "craving something." We’re constantly bombarded with more recommendations. In the end, you’re left chasing after it all because you can’t keep up with what everyone around you is talking about.
A few decades ago, life was slower, and maybe we weren’t hyper-educated experts on everything, but at least we enjoyed our discoveries. We’d wait for anticipated concerts and releases by our favorite artists, and each such occasion was cause for celebration. It created a special time for both us, the listeners, and the artists. I have the feeling that in our rush to know everything about everything, we’ve lost the ability to truly savor these things.
Now, everything lives online, and we’ve grown accustomed to everything being free and at our fingertips. The survivor will be the one who can find their way in this reality, understanding that people need a space to nurture specific needs, which requires time and favorable conditions. They should have a competent advisor to confront new ideas realistically, weighing the pros and cons. I have no idea how to accomplish this given the current challenges, but I believe solutions will eventually emerge as responses to the present situation. Determination drives people, and reaching goals is tied to exploring endless solutions. So we’ll just have to wait for them to unfold.

Which artist currently inspires you the most?
Maciek Frett: I’m more inspired by philosophers, thinkers, mystics, nature, travel, society as a collective entity, humanity with its dual nature, geopolitics, the history of homo sapiens, civilizations, architecture, quantum physics, and so on… Music from records accompanies me from morning till night, but it’s not a conscious source of inspiration—at least not intentionally. ;-)
Tomasz Woodraf: Pink Turns Blue, for a long time now—just naturally—I consume their music in any form without hesitation. From newer acts, I’d say Vlure, although I won’t be able to attend their concert in Poland, and Blu Anxxiety with their dark freestyle!
Łukasz "Wookie" Miernik: Since the end of the last century, my holy trinity has been Björk, Coil, and KLF. From the dark scene, even though I’ve never been a die-hard fan of any particular band of his, I have the most respect for Daniel Myer for his body of work, creativity, and the mind behind it all. The same goes for Zanias, as mentioned before—she’s constantly exploring new sounds. Every one of her music projects guarantees excellent quality, and her label’s artist selection is fantastic.
Maciej Mehring: Hmm… it’s hard for me to pinpoint a specific artist whose work creatively inspires me to take new directions. Perhaps it’s due to similar reasons I mentioned in response to the previous question, or maybe it’s because I’m at a stage in life where my activities in various fields are driven by different impulses than before. There’s less youthful enthusiasm and awe, and more focus on achieving specific goals in my current projects. I keep my emotional response only to nurture the inner child that can still marvel just as intensely as before, without losing that instinct to seek out something new, interesting, etc.
At the same time, I’m glad I can still appreciate phenomenal works created by various artists, both those I’ve admired for years and those just taking their first steps on stage, yet producing extraordinary things. I usually admire those who go against established norms, treating their craft as a medium for overcoming new challenges, whether it’s in entertainment or fine art. I enjoy it when an artist surprises, dismantling the effects of their previous work to redefine it and return with something completely fresh and unexpected.
It’s not about reinventing the wheel, but about working effectively and impressively outside their comfort zone. The means of expression they use to achieve this are less important; rather, it’s the method or convention into which they integrate it. I can find all of this within the communities I relate to and in the work we do at Zoharum.
However, I believe it can also apply to mainstream artistic phenomena. Take, for example, releases from major stars that are always widely discussed—Depeche Mode or Deep Purple, let’s say. I chose these examples deliberately. There are hundreds like them, but it’s hard to pass by these releases indifferently, especially given the emotional connection built up over years of sentimental bonds between fans and their idols. Some will accuse them of betrayal for their chosen direction, others of some kind of anachronism, which is also often criticized. I’m not passing judgment; both sides have valid points. It’s more about the phenomenon itself.
Let’s take the work of these British artists from 1985 and 20++, and place it alongside those who debuted at a similar time, like OMD, or even closer—Erasure. Who has withstood the test of time? Why? Whose work has evolved to find its place in the present reality while retaining that distinct character by which we recognize them as still the same band? Maybe this model is too simplistic, but I wanted to illustrate what I appreciate in other artists’ work methods.
I definitely prefer immersing myself in stylistically closer musical realms where such examples are abundant… Let me refrain from naming specific artists. There are just too many… thankfully.

Which bands would you most like to see live in Poland?
Maciek Frett: One of the reasons I started organizing concerts and festivals in the late '90s was that I got tired of traveling to Prague or Germany for the events that interested me. I told myself—hey, let’s invite these bands to Wrocław, have them play in a fitting venue, so we don’t have to go anywhere, and others can come to us ;-) So I have the advantage that if I really want to see someone, I invite them here.
Tomasz Woodraf: The Chameleons, Pink Turns Blue, Corpus Delicti, UK Decay again… and Blu Anxxiety!
Łukasz "Wookie" Miernik: All the cool ones that, as far as I know, haven’t played here yet—Kite, Nuovo Testamento, Black Nail Cabaret, Years Of Denial, or Dina Summer. Among those confirmed, I’m looking forward to Björk, PVA, Ultra Sunn, Die Selektion, Mareux, the farewell tour of Lingua Ignota, and the long-awaited returns of Röyksopp and Ladytron. I hope VLURE will also do a club show apart from the ill-fated OFF Festival.
Maciej Mehring: I’m not sure it’s worth listing concerts I wish for that haven’t happened yet. Most of the ones I wanted to see have already taken place here. Some of my favorite artists I’ve had the chance to see live multiple times, and others I haven’t managed to see even once, hoping to make up for it someday. Although not all… For instance, I still regret missing COIL in Gdańsk when I was taking care of my sick mother or Throbbing Gristle, which I thought I’d still get a chance to see… As for other concerts, I believe there are still plenty ahead of me.

What are you currently working on—your main projects in concerts, music, DJing, or art?
Maciek Frett: I’m currently finishing the recording of the new FRETT album, set to be released in fall 2023. We’ll likely play a few shows to promote it. Additionally, in June, Industrial Art is organizing the 20th anniversary of Rytuał, the annual Podwodny Wrocław, the 22nd WIF in November, followed shortly by Energia Dźwięku, and we’ll end the year with our traditional New Year’s Eve ball with Industrial Art. I can’t complain about boredom ;-)
Tomasz Woodraf: I’m working on a few projects—the most important being Return To The Batcave Festival 2023, and we’ve pushed this year’s lineup even more toward guitar sounds—thought that wasn’t possible, but it is! Besides legends and established bands like The Snake Corps, Belgrado, Bohemien, The Foreign Resort, and The Cemetery Girlz, we’ll also have young bands like Da’at, Night Hexe, and Cataphiles. I’m constantly working on new releases for Bat-Cave Productions… a few more will hopefully be out this year, but it’s too early to talk about them. I’m also counting down the days to Castle Party, where friends and I will host a "batty" afterparty—maybe I’ll even bring lollipops for the naughty kids. After a short break, I’ll be heading to the Prague Gothic Treffen, where I’ve been invited to DJ as well. I really love this festival; they always have a great lineup—highly recommend visiting! There’s also a chance something new from the BluzaTaty project will appear. ;)
Łukasz "Wookie" Miernik: My natural laziness and day job with sound keep me from diving into my own creative expressions, but I haven’t entirely ruled myself out. In the near future, join me at the OldSkull afterparty on 17.06 at Chmury (with Sex Kino, Hammershøi, and Psychoformalin). I’m planning to heat up Estonian dance floors and launch a new series of club events. Next year, our DJ collective TOG celebrates its 25th anniversary, so expect black celebrations across the country.
Maciej Mehring: Hm... most of my life recently revolves around Zoharum. Duties related to that take up most of my time, shared with responsibilities toward my employer. This makes it hard to find time for other musical pursuits. For that reason, I’ve put my work with Bisclaveret on hold. I think Radek and I reached a place where we each wanted to go in a different direction. I still have lots of musical ideas in my head that, hopefully, I’ll get to realize someday. Meanwhile, I’ve shifted my musical and spare time towards DJing, which brings me a lot of joy. I’ve always enjoyed sharing music that absorbs me at a given moment. This kind of activity, paired with the craft of DJing, allows me to do just that almost fully. I also sometimes organize events where I bring to life the "industrial music for industrial people" idea. We’ve launched the Join In The Chant series, where we play what moves us for club audiences—synth, electro, EBM, with a heavy dose of industrial. If things go well, we’ll expand the series beyond the Tricity.
It’s great when the audience enjoys "your" music, even if they’re hearing it for the first time. Regarding concerts—those of other artists, not mine—we’re organizing an event after several years for bands we work with, including That’s How I Fight, Dusseldorf, and Popsysze. It’s been a while since I’ve done this, so I don’t know how the work will translate into results, but I’m a bit excited to see it happen. Additionally, thanks to Zoharum-related activities, I get to do a lot of the graphic design work for our releases, which has been really satisfying lately.
Thanks so much for the conversation!

Author: khocico
Translator: khocico
Add date: 2023-06-07 / Interviews